Help, won't boot

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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby davewilk » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:54 pm

mashedmitten wrote:
> Hmmm, you had to use Fill for the OSes to see the data partition, wonder if that
> enters into it. But given DrTeeth's next post and assuming he doesn't have data
> partitions on the OS drive, same as I, it must be an Upgrade issue. I got around it
> by installing W10 from the ISO and not an upgrade.
>
> Still, I'd do it all over. No way I could let the extra MS bits live in my world.
> Must be a form of OCD.

What do mean by "you had to use Fill for the OSes to see the data partition"?

The only reason I upgraded from Win8 to Win10 was to get the free Win10 activation on the machine. I always intended to do a clean install later, perhaps on a SSD.

But the Win7 install and the Data partition I would really like to get back.
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby mashedmitten » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:40 pm

Sorry, I'm not seeing clear responses to my questions. I can't see your system, so I'm relying on you to provide input to help me help you. We could go on with the speculation but it won't get us anywhere. The quote function of the forum doesn't help matters any, either. Every time I go to re-read the thread, the quotes put a quick halt to the folly.

Hope you get it sorted and if you don't, I hope you see storing data on an OS drive without backup isn't a good thing and that making any OS changes without backup is just as bad.

Best thing for you is to remove that drive without doing anything further to it and have someone retrieve the data if it's that important and you don't know how to do it yourself. Get another drive, better yet two, and get up and running.

I'm reluctant to say how I fixed it when I tried replicating your issue, I'm afraid given your skill set it might do more harm than good and you'll lose the data for good.
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby DrTeeth » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:29 pm

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:03:20 PDT, just as I was about to take a herb,
mashedmitten disturbed my reverie and wrote:

>What did you let the upgrade carry over from the old OS, anything?

It was a virtually fresh install so I just upgraded just for the heck
of it to see if it could be done. I let everything be carried over.

<>
I expect to be upgrading my CPU/motherboard/memory in the next few
months or so. I'll probably also upgrade my PSU.

I'll probably be going Intel once prices settle and there is a bit
more clarity on both AMD's and Intel's "only Win 10 supported"
rubbish. I'm still running an Intel i7 860. Due to probs with hardware
issues, my current version of Win 7 had about 4-5 major hardware swaps
in about 2 weeks without any problems at all. Once I have my current
Win 7 install running fine, I think I'll treat the new hardware to a
fresh Win 7 install.
--
Cheers,

DrT

"If you want to find out what is wrong
with democracy, spend five minutes with
the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby mashedmitten » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:47 pm

DrTeeth wrote:
> Due to probs with hardware
> issues, my current version of Win 7 had about 4-5 major hardware swaps
> in about 2 weeks without any problems at all.

This is the first place I'd look for issues. If you installed new hardware drivers over old without doing a fresh install there are all kinds of registry issues like broken paths and obsolete entries that could affect the upgrade as well as the original OS. CCleaner won't fix everything, either. I use computers for my Digital Audio Workstation so I'm familiar with what can bring a system to it's knees. That's high on the list. I don't care if it's just a new drive, I redo the OS with the change. Give it a shot, all it takes is time. Might delay purchase of the new bits until things are settled re; W10.

Re; the upgrades and the power supply, don't overkill the specs. Anything above what the sum of components calls for plus a little buffer, power wise, just produces added heat and has no performance benefit, as well.

If you want some good specs for a new build, check out some of the computer sections on DAW forums. Quite a few commercial system builders that are free with their info as to what plays nice with what as a combination. Also lots of info on the CPU W10 thing you're worried about.

Sorry for the OT, no PM to take this elsewhere. :oops:
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby DrTeeth » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:35 am

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:47:11 PDT, just as I was about to take a herb,
mashedmitten disturbed my reverie and wrote:

>DrTeeth wrote:
>> Due to probs with hardware
>> issues, my current version of Win 7 had about 4-5 major hardware swaps
>> in about 2 weeks without any problems at all.
>
>This is the first place I'd look for issues. If you installed new hardware drivers over old without doing a fresh install there are all kinds of registry issues like broken paths and obsolete entries that could affect the upgrade as well as the original OS. CCleaner won't fix everything, either. I use computers for my Digital Audio Workstation so I'm familiar with what can bring a system to it's knees. That's high on the list. I don't care if it's just a new drive, I redo the OS with the change. Give it a shot, all it takes is time. Might delay purchase of the new bits until things are settled re; W10.
>
>Re; the upgrades and the power supply, don't overkill the specs. Anything above what the sum of components calls for plus a little buffer, power wise, just produces added heat and has no performance benefit, as well.
>
>If you want some good specs for a new build, check out some of the computer sections on DAW forums. Quite a few commercial system builders that are free with their info as to what plays nice with what as a combination. Also lots of info on the CPU W10 thing you're worried about.
>
>Sorry for the OT, no PM to take this elsewhere.
>
>![:oops:]({SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif)

I said that I did not have any problems of any significance in moving
the disk drives between several new hardware setups over two weeks.
The *only* setup that causes problems to doing this is Win XP with
third party disk drivers. With windows 7, the OS just automatically
changes drivers to match the hardware. Works perfectly.
--
Cheers,

DrT

"If you want to find out what is wrong
with democracy, spend five minutes with
the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby davewilk » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:34 am

mashedmitten wrote:
> Sorry, I'm not seeing clear responses to my questions. I can't see your
> system, so I'm relying on you to provide input to help me help you. We
> could go on with the speculation but it won't get us anywhere. The quote
> function of the forum doesn't help matters any, either. Every time I go to
> re-read the thread, the quotes put a quick halt to the folly.
> // ...
I'm sorry, but I like to quote at least enough to make clear who am responding to.

What are the specific questions you are talking about? You have asked me to do some things which I am slightly reluctant to try until I understand what is going on.

The first thing is the partition table. This is what I have (taken from the BIBM display).

Name Start End Size (MiB) Sectors Sectors/2048
BootIt 63 16064 8 16002 7.813476563
Win7 16065 245775599 120000 245759535 119999.7729
Win8 245775600 489690831 119099 243915232 119099.2344
RE 1 489691136 490612735 450 921600 450
RE 2 490614784 491536383 450 921600 450
Data 973635390 1465144064 239994 491508675 239994.4702

I'm not sure that I see anything wrong with this. This is a 750 GB drive. The Data partition is at the end, and it looks as if two RE partitions have been created in the 120000 MiB partition that I made (long ago) for Windows 8.

But two things bother me (other than the machine will not boot)

1. I do not see the "Empty space" entry before the Data partition. Such an entry usually appears in the BIBM output

2. When I go to look at the Properties of the Data partition (and the BIBM partition) I get the message "Invalid Head and SPT values Exist in the BPB. Fix it?" I say "No" and then the info that appears for Data in the above table appears.

What does this message mean? It does not occur for all the other partitions.

The Windows 7 boot entry has Win7 and Data. The Windows 10 entry has Win10, RE1, RE2 and Data. If I try to boot either entry and then view the MBR in Partition work, the correct partitions are present for that entry, with information consistent with the above table.

What actually happened when you did this upgrade? It sound like it may have been worse than this.
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby davewilk » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:45 am

OK, I have noticed that in Partition Work, the drive is listed as

0 BIOS HD (31.5 GiB)

whereas the true size is 750 GB. What does this mean?

OK, if I use BIOS (Direct) to access the drive I see a more reasonable 698.64 GiB. And the Free space is now displayed. So what does all this mean? Why can't BIBM read the correct disk size via the BIOS?

I have noticed one more thing. If I reboot the machine, right before the BIBM window appears, a white window appears briefly on the middle of the screen, but disappears before I can read it. I do not remember seeing this before.
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby mashedmitten » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:58 am

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, wasn't intended. I just saw what was involved in the fix and didn't want to be the cause of you losing important data if anything went wrong.

What I think happened is at some point during the upgrade Windows go a hold of the MBR, wrote to it and now BIBM doesn't agree with where things are now listed as being. There may also be additional issues combined with the first which might need different fixes. Without backup of all desired data and or OS images, if you mess up the fix during the attempt or it ends up being one of the other possibilities, you can lose everything permanently. I asked specific questions to help me determine a specific fix for the exact cause of the issue. That's why it's so important, things can be gone forever extremely easily. One stray click or misstep and poof, no more data. I tried going back through the thread to see if I might be mistaken, but the quotes get in the way. Only reason I mentioned them was the way the forum handles them, nothing to do with you personally. If I missed the info, I apologize, but I'm not seeing the answers I'm looking for to see we have a meeting of the minds, so to speak. Again, nothing personal, I just don't want you to lose anything.

So I still recommend the new drive scenario and you having the data recovered. It's the only sure fire way to recover anything with the least possible loss. I mentioned the backup importance and second drive for data so you never have to go through this again. With my method, I can take out anything at will and be up and running in minutes, nothing ever lost.

Just want to say once more, I don't want you to lose anything. I'm imagining pictures of kids/ grand kids that can't be replaced etc...

Moving forward, it's important to create all partitions with BIBM, make sure the desired is marked Active before OS install and immediately upon completion restart BIBM before the system boots itself to the OS to keep MS out of the loop.

Really hope you get it sorted. 8-)
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby mashedmitten » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Was typing while you posted.

Confirms my belief it's more than one root cause. MS is saying one thing, BIBM another. Still are other issues on top of that though.

I can't say another word until I know all your data is safe or you say you don't care if it gets lost. I'm still reluctant if you choose option 2.
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Re: Help, won't boot

Postby davewilk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:35 pm

mashedmitten wrote:
> Confirms my belief it's more than one root cause. MS is saying one thing,
> BIBM another. Still are other issues on top of that though.
>
> I can't say another word until I know all your data is safe or you say you
> don't care if it gets lost. I'm still reluctant if you choose option 2.

OMG, it's working now. But it's very strange.

My goal was to get the Windows 7 install working again (I don't really care about the Win10 one for now). So I imaged the Win7 and Data partitions to another drive (yes, there is another drive, maybe I should have mentioned that). First thing, I thought I would upgrade to latest BIBM, so I made myself an install CD. I remembered that last time I tried to upgrade BIBM I had trouble because of the other drive (new BIBM couldn't find old BIBM partition), so I opened the case, blew out 1.5 years of dust, and removed the SATA cable from the second drive. Just to check nothing had changed, I booted without the new BIBM CD and tried to boot Windows 7. Bingo, the Windows 7 booted (something HAD changed, but for the better). I restarted the machine and tried to boot to Windows 7 again. Now it won't boot. On a hunch I shut down the machine and pulled/replaced the power cord, and restarted the machine. Bingo, it boots to Windows 7 again. And now I can restart and it will boot again. AND ... it will boot to Windows 10, and I can restart and switch back and forth between Windows 7 and Windows 10 any way I want. Strange, but it's working now.

So I re-open the case and reattach the second drive. Now it won't boot again. So I pull/replace the power cord. Bingo, now it will boot into either Windows 7 or Windows 10. What is going on here?

Remember, what started all this was that I applied all the Windows updates to the Windows 10 that I had upgraded from Windows 8.1 during the free upgrade period. Clearly, these updates did not do any real harm to the whole BIBM setup because it was working right after I did it, and its working now. I hope it's not some kind of intermittent hardware problem (though this machine does need an upgrade...).

Thanks for all your help, by the way, but clearly things were not as bad as you thought.
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