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Re: BING and USB

Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:01 am

Interesting discussion.

I tend to side with Terabyte on this one. Everything worked fine with this mouse on my previous set-up. Perhaps it is some conflict with the UEFI BIOS and BING. The mouse does work fine in UEFI.

Terabyte Support I'm going to pass that info about the interrupt code passed by BING if I can find it.

Re: BING and USB

Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:49 pm

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 08:01:39 PST, just as I was about to take a herb,
HighSierra disturbed my reverie and wrote:

>I tend to side with Terabyte on this one.

So do I. Except the waters get muddied when one has a USB mouse that
works and another one does not.

IIRC, Alan did some successful experiments with an open source DOS
driver a while back
--

Cheers

DrT
______________________________
We may not be able to prevent the stormy times in
our lives; but we can always choose to dance
in the puddles (Jewish proverb).

Re: BING and USB

Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:26 pm

HighSierra,

> I tend to side with Terabyte on this one

You have to seeing as how Asus has done all that's required on their end.

> The mouse does work fine in UEFI.

That just goes to show you Asus has done their part.
You'll very likely get no more from their end.

> If the system and mouse work fine without the legacy application then there is a problem in the legacy application itself.
> A floating mouse pointer is a software or mouse issue and not a motherboard issue

Until TB comes up with some sort of better USB support for USB mice, the balls in their court,
at least in your case (Asus MoBo), other MoBo's may need updates.....many won't bother.

With each side blaming the other, and neither doing much to fix the problem, it comes down to a few alternate choices;

1) A corded PS/2 connector mouse IF your MoBo has a PS/2 connector port (most newer PC's don't).
{PS/2 connector=highest probability of functioning correctly?}

2) Keyboard (USB) only (often stated by TB as THE best solution), no USB mouse
{second best solution, but disliked by some)

3) Borrow dozens of other USB mice & keep trying until & IF you find one that works.

This whole issue of USB mice support in a DOS 'like' environment borders on being an oxymoron,
seeing as how USB was & is designed for use within an OS. Support for USB keyboard/mice has always been at a minimum in
pre-OS usage (BIOS navigation, DOS, bootloaders, etc).

There IS a wee bit of odd humor here, with this being 12 years into the 21st century and some still want USB mouse support
in a legacy app. LOL!
--

Jim L.
Using - Virtual Access(OLR)
http://www.virtual-access.org
6.3.0.5 Windows Vista Service Pack 2 build 6002

Re: BING and USB

Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:40 pm

It's up to the system BIOS to provide proper mouse support whether on USB or
PS/2 port. If it doesn't provide the support it won't work. The only way
around a lame BIOS is to program USB directly, however, the keyboard/mouse
will be dead after leaving to boot an OS (meaning the keyboard and mouse
would be useless until the OS loads enough to load USB drivers and
mouse/keyboard drivers). USB 2 actually offers two-way hand offs and some
BIOSes work fine with that, but BIOS with bugs/limitations of basic
keyboard/mouse support isn't going to support taking back control (even
worse, the USB3 spec specially says the handoff is one-way). Asus used to
be one of the better mobo's with good USB legacy support, that's changed.

Maybe the Fig 1 diagram here will help explain what the BIOS is responsible
for:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463435#EKC



"a1pcfixer" wrote in message news:1327@public.bootitng...

Until TB comes up with some sort of better USB support for USB mice,

Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:45 am

TeraByte,

> It's up to the system BIOS to provide proper mouse support whether on USB or
> PS/2 port. If it doesn't provide the support it won't work.

I understand that, but in the case of Asus, they're done all the intend to and
I doubt anymore will be done. From their POV, USB keyboard and USB mouse
support DOES properly exist as noted by HighSierra.....

> The mouse does work fine in UEFI.

Everyone involved in this TB -vs- BIOS USB mouse support issue needs to
understand, is that BIOS maker's core concern is solely with getting a USB
keyboard to allow a user to navigate their BIOS settings (as needed) then to
allow booting into an OS. Alot of folks won't like this, but USB mouse support
is at the bottom of their list of concerns to us the end users.

As noted in link provided; Note: Some BIOS vendors support only a USB keyboard
and not a USB mouse.

USB mouse support as BIOS coders see it is at the bottom of the pile. Which
easily explains why they have little concern to fix any such issues. Why should
they, boot loader apps (legacy app) account for what, maybe 1/2 of 1 percent
(0.50%)?

> Asus used to
> be one of the better mobo's with good USB legacy support, that's changed.

They still are top notch! They've done all they need to for USB mouse support
as noted above.

With the often user requested 'fix' for USB mouse support both here & the
former newsgroup, it might be better in a marketing sense, to state that most
PC's (BIOS') support the majority of USB keyboards, but that most USB mice do
NOT correctly function with TB BiNG/BIBM/IFD.

Blaming the BIOS makers whether or not true, only serves to put TB in a bad
light. Both sides blaming each others gets this issue no where!

State that TB BiNG/BIBM/IFD work correctly with USB keyboards, but not all USB
mice, and best solution is to use the keyboard for navigation. Do that and
create a kb article, list the keyboard commands for each TB product, and put
this issue to rest and be done with it.
--

Jim L.
Using - Virtual Access(OLR)
http://www.virtual-access.org
6.3.0.5 Windows Vista Service Pack 2 build 6002

Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:36 pm

Actually, the BIOS developers would most likely fix it if they knew of it,
because on their end it's fairly simple and they (developers) do care that
their BIOS works properly. However, if you let the management type get away
with it, they will. The guys you get to email directly just know what they
are taught to say. They would fix it if enough people complained, a
magazine complained or pointed out the lack of standards compliance, a large
enough OEM (system builder) complained, or you could let the BIOS developers
know. They ought to just open source the BIOSes to the point others could
fix it and they could control the merge/build. It would at least keep
systems more useful than they are becoming. Computers used to save you a
lot of time, now they are like a bad employee and take a lot of your time.

There is a shortcut help in the help and manual, also the Win7 video has
without a mouse, but an "overview" type video (which would show how to use
the keyboard) is planned for someday....


"a1pcfixer" wrote in message news:1340@public.bootitng...

> It's up to the system BIOS to provide proper mouse support whether on USB
> or
> PS/2 port. If it doesn't provide the support it won't work.

I understand that, but in the case of Asus, they're done all the intend to
and
I doubt anymore will be done. From their POV, USB keyboard and USB mouse
support DOES properly exist as noted by HighSierra.....


Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:18 pm

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 05:45:10 PST, just as I was about to take a herb,
a1pcfixer disturbed my reverie and wrote:

>> Asus used to
>> be one of the better mobo's with good USB legacy support, that's changed.
>
>They still are top notch! They've done all they need to for USB mouse support
>as noted above.

My previous Asus MB had problems with my USB mouse, a recent (and
short-lived) Gigabyte motherboard did not and my current Asus 'board
does. It's a real mess out there.
--

Cheers

DrT
______________________________
We may not be able to prevent the stormy times in
our lives; but we can always choose to dance
in the puddles (Jewish proverb).

Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:42 pm

On 2012-02-06 8:26 PM, a1pcfixer wrote:
> 1) A corded PS/2 connector mouse IF your MoBo has a PS/2 connector port (most newer PC's don't).

JFTHOI, I would like to take issue with the above statement regards
availability of PS/2 on new motherboards.

I looked until I got tired of doing it at both ASUS and GIGABYTE.

Every single one had either one or two PS/2 ports on their new MB's.

AlanD

Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:04 pm

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:18:45 PST, just as I was about to take a herb,
DrTeeth disturbed my reverie and wrote:

>My previous Asus MB had problems with my USB mouse, a recent (and
>short-lived) Gigabyte motherboard did not and my current Asus 'board
>does. It's a real mess out there.

Should read "My previous Asus MB had problems with my USB mouse, a
recent (and short-lived) Gigabyte motherboard also did and my current
Asus 'board does not. It's a real mess out there".
--

Cheers

DrT
______________________________
We may not be able to prevent the stormy times in
our lives; but we can always choose to dance
in the puddles (Jewish proverb).

Re: BING and USB

Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:51 pm

TeraByte,

> They would fix it if enough people complained, a
> magazine complained or pointed out the lack of standards compliance, a large
> enough OEM (system builder) complained, or you could let the BIOS developers
> know.

True, but as I pointed out, TB 'legacy' apps just aren't at the top of the food
chain for BIOS'. Keyboard navigation of the BIOS settings, then passing off
support of USB to within the OS is their primary concerns.

> They ought to just open source the BIOSes to the point others could
> fix it and they could control the merge/build.

Ahh, we can only wish for that to happen. Phoenix and AMI aren't much
interested in 'legacy' apps any longer....nor anyone attempting to reverse
engineer their code either!

I used to 'alpha' & 'beta' test various programs in the past. One group of us
had direct access to the programmer's and the back & forth dialog really got
development moving forward nicely. Another group had a middle man, and we
suspected not all our suggestions made it to the programmers.

I once worked with a few friends that made customized BIOS for Abit MoBo's.
Those at one time were THE defacto best MoBo for OC'ing bar none.
I still have a maxed out Abit BD711-Raid sitting behind me, but alas, compared
to today's MoBo' it ancient tech.
Sad to see that Abit has bitten the dust:-(

> There is a shortcut help in the help and manual, also the Win7 video has
> without a mouse, but an "overview" type video (which would show how to use
> the keyboard) is planned for someday....

That AND a kb article listing each keyboard keystroke for BiNG/BIBM/IFD would
be great!

As is, USB support for USB mice in TB BiNG/BIBM/IFD is so pathetic as to be
nonexistant for the most part. Far & few get such to work reliably, so for all
intents & purposes it don't exist. With each side blaming the other, work
arounds (keyboard) are the only stable & reliable means of navigating TB
products.

From the old former newsgroup, I found these.....
{It'd be great if ya condensed the following into a kb article/pdf file}

What keyboard combinations are used across all 3 products?

Some info I've gotten from (incomplete);
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=379

(BING);
Although it is not necessary to press the Alt key when accelerator keys
are used if the area of the interface containing the accelerator key
already has focus, it is not a bad habit to always use the Alt key when
invoking accelerator keys. For example, you could use Alt+S on the
BootIt NG desktop to access the BootIt NG Settings dialog.

Radio Buttons and Check Boxes

To select a check box using the keyboard, press the Tab key until the
desired check box is marked with the selection rectangle. Then, press
the Space Bar to toggle the check box.

The method for selecting a radio button is similar to that for a check
box. The difference is that to select a particular radio button, you
press the Tab key until the group of radio buttons is marked with the
selection rectangle, and then you use the arrow keys to select the
desired radio button. Finally, the Space Bar can be used to activate
the radio button.

F10=ok/close/resume/accept/save
Esc=Cancel
F1=Help
F12=Capture screen shot and save to A: drive
Delete/Del=Delete or Clear (on Partition Work window)
Alt+0=Shut down
Ctrl+Alt+Del= reboot
Tab=next field
Insert/Ins=Add, Create, or Fill (on Partition Work window)
Spacebar=activate selected item

Alt + Down arrow?
Alt + Up arrow

(IFD);

(IFL);

-and-

the IFD/IFL have all the hot keys highlighted wizard like and enter is
always ok (or next) and escape to back up or close. The special function
keys are listed at the bottom. delete key is available to delete files from
file dialog.

The alt-arrow keys are used when you need to move something like an entry in
mbr details or in view mbr.

-And-

oh for BING the only one that may be a little confusing is radio boxes ...
you tab to the group then need to use the arrow key to select the item
(dashes) and spacebar to select it.

-And-

When you have multiple items in your boot menu, highlight one...

Hold down SHIFT Key while clicking the BOOT button.

That will push the partition layout(s) into the partition table(s) on the
drive(s)

Regardless of what you may have cleared or loaded into the partition tables
manually while "Working With Partitions"

That is useful for many situations, particularly removable media ie.
Flashdrives that appear as HD's etc.
--

Jim L.
Using - Virtual Access(OLR)
http://www.virtual-access.org
6.3.0.5 Windows Vista Service Pack 2 build 6002

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